ShiftED Podcast #93 Beyond the Hype: AI, Creativity, and Critical Thinking with Nicole Muñoz-Guzman (UQAM)

Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of Shift Ed Podcast coming to you. We are dabbling a lot with AI in our system these days, and in Quebec we are moving forward with it. Sometimes we take a step forward, a couple steps back. We're moving this forward. And today I have Nicole Munzo Guzman, who is uh consultant for the Recit, and she has been doing a lot of research around Voc and adult education and how AI can be integrated and how do we help support teachers and learners moving them forward with AI and AI literacy. Um, so I was very happy to not have to reach too far away from home. This is very much a homegrown conversation that we're gonna have about AI in Quebec. Um and Nicole, thanks so much for taking me up on this offer. I was uh very happy. I follow you on LinkedIn and I love what you post and I love your mindset around um AI and education. Um I guess my first question, Nicole, is what how did you get to this spot in in your career? What what are a few of those moments that kind of shifted your journey to get to AI and education and working in the adult in Voctech sector?

Well, first of all, thank you, Chris, for having me uh today with you on your podcast. It's a question that is not simple to answer because as any uh person that works in uh in the for my vocational training, we have many lives before jumping into teaching and uh more of the pedagogical aspect of it. So, long story short, I used to teach, I became a teacher by accident, I would say, as many of my peers. I was a professional aesthetician and I had a salon and I was doing my own thing. And then I was looking for maybe opportunities to do something else in the future. And I'm like, maybe studying to become a teacher might not be a bad option for me. And it's actually a friend that spoke to me about le baccalauréat enseignement professionnel. So then I researched it and okay, I went in, but expecting just to uh study, and maybe when I decide to change, I'll teach. But it came faster than expected. So I started teaching years ago, and uh right away I had this passion of for adult education. For me, it was just something that I did for my entire life. I never felt it was something that new to me. It was just exhilarating, it was exciting. It was you you accompany you uncouple uh you you accompany people through their their education process. And a lot of the students, uh I'm I always worked in the area of uh in the Montreal area. So not only you teach something to people, but you help them integrate in the society as well. And they have to learn more French and they have to develop new skills. And so I was very passionate, uh passionated about that. So then I decided to do that full-time and I had uh job opportunities. And the more I advanced, the more I already had an interest in technology from a prior job that I had when I was younger. I used to sell cell phones actually. So that that was my first experience with uh fast evolving technology, and uh I always integrated it in the classroom. So when I saw what when the generative AI came into the picture, I right away saw the potential in what it could potentially do for our field. And I decided to, at the time I was working for L'Hisie, I had a position as uh in uh conseillère pédagogique régionale. Uh and uh with that team, uh there were huge exceptional human beings that had a lot of knowledge about technology, and I I told myself, how can I be uh a plus uh plus value for the team? And right away I dig into AI and uh I did a lot of uh different uh courses, and uh that's where I ended up uh finding another passion, and now I'm uh researching it. So when I go for something, it's uh go deep.

You're you're doing this through Université de Laval, is that University Quebec à Montréal, so I look, yes. Okay, cool, cool, very interesting. And like, Nico, what were your first encounters with AI? I mean, with when this dropped November 2022. Like, what did you think of it when you first encountered AI? Like, w what were your feelings towards it and like aha moments or like oh no moments? Can you expand on that a bit?

Yeah, so it went a little bit like this. It was Chad GPT, obviously, like a lot of people at first uh experience, and I read about it and I'm like, let me let me try this out. So I went in, I asked the question, got an answer, and it was a pretty basic uh question I asked. And I was like, okay, it's it's okay. But then I started trying other questions, and then wait a minute, oh, we can go there. And then it just progressed to where are the limits of this thing until I realized there were no limits. So then you you you try more and more things, right? So that that was my first experience, I think. Like a lot of people with uh Chat GPT, and it just went from there.

Interesting, interesting. And are you doing research around AI? Like, is is are there ongoing research topics that because I did read that you were looking at like the connection between AI and education in Voc Tech through that lens. Um how do you approach that? How do you approach uh kind of bringing AI into our Voc Tech and our adult ed centers?

Well, right now what uh what I study a lot is uh the steps, how people s'appropri in English appropriate the the technology. And that's where I my attention is at because currently we have a lot of examples. People try, it's basically right now a trial and error thing going on, and the lack of structure that we currently have for teachers, like with their how to train them, how to give them the proper tools to navigate this uh technological change, forces them basically to try on their own in their corner. I'm in my class, I want to do this. So, right now I'm interested in the steps they did, who they were before they discovered, like I did, generative AI. Uh, does it play a factor? What makes one teacher excited about using it and and more flexible in how far he can go with it, and another one that maybe doesn't ex hasn't touched it or barely. And um, this is where I'm at really to know exactly what processes go through their brains, how they choose the tools, why they choose the tools, who help them, uh, what are the environments that allow them to develop the uh this new knowledge versus those that maybe didn't have the same chances, right? So for me it's really important to to uh it's an observation that I want to make because right now, at least in vocational training, there's no data on how teachers are currently navigating this. And I think it's very important to have these this information to to create proper training and l'accompagnement, like we say, uh for these teachers.

Absolutely, absolutely. And because there's no age restriction, like in the youth sector where we, you know, where we we work more, we have eight, you know, 13, 14. So it's kind of like we're kind of approaching it from how could we help teachers, you know? So I'm happy to hear what you're talking about as well, that start with the teacher before we get to the kids, um, or the adults, I should say. Um have you noticed that teachers are more willing to bring it into classrooms than with um with their students? Like are do teachers encourage students to use it or are they just not there yet?

It really depends on the teacher, but I think in our sector is uh mainly based on how the the sector is evolving. Let's say if you're training to be a secretary, now your employer will probably expect you to use uh Chat GPT, let's say to write letters or to do things, right? So in some fields, um it it's faster because they have no choice. It's integrated in there in the apps they use and things like that. But in other fields, no, it really depends on the teacher. And you did mention something that is very in a perfect world, it would be important to equip teachers so they can better equip students. But the reality is students are already learning about AI, they are already using it. So it's not that that ideal, it's not that perfect. So right now, the one of the main issues that I can observe is that we're waiting to check all the boxes, we're waiting for the right moment to have all the ingredients on the table. We have to be smart about this and uh uh use strategics to use AI in the right way, but we cannot wait that much because it's okay if we don't have all the answers right away. We'll adapt. But everything is happening at the at a rapid pace at all levels. So ideally, yes, we should uh give teachers the tools, but students right now have their own tools and and we can't think c'est pas linéaire, everything's happening at the same time. So we have to move. We can't wait for after we've done step one, we move to step two. It's not happening like that on the field.

Totally. Yeah, and uh with with the the the call de reference numérique just got its you know AI sheen to it, so they've integrated AI into the 12 dimensions. Do you work uh around that call numeric in in Vok and Adult Ed? Like, do they use that as a reference of um you know to keep kind of at the forefront kind of like AI literacy um and things that we need to be aware of? And I guess it kind of leads to those soft skills. Like, are we developing those soft skills so that our students, when they leave our programs, are ready to go? Like, what's your impression on that?

Um it just came out, right? The new version of the document, and uh not at all, not everyone has read it yet. But what's interesting is that it's for the first time they integrated AI and generated generative AI as part of le numeric. Uh in Silar. So it has to be integrated. It's not even a set, it's it's not a different thing or a side thing. It has to be part of it. The what what it it brings is change, it brings a lot of changes actually. It's not because of that document, it's more about uh the technology behind it. It changes a lot of things because for the longest time, being a teacher was I have knowledge that I'm gonna transmit to you and teach you something, right? Now, students they can uh learn different things from other places. And not only that, they can have feedback, instant feedback that is pretty much it's pretty good. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. So now the the the role of uh of a teacher, for example, of a pedagogical advisor, it's more to be a guy, a guidance for the the students to have ethical ethical approaches, to have uh critical thinking. It's more of how to recognize the bias sometimes that the algorithms have. Uh it's it's more of I have something to teach you, but there's more to it. I'm gonna give you the tools to navigate after you leave this classroom. If you're at home or with your friends and you're confronted with this or that situation, you have to be able to respond, right? So it goes beyond what we teach in the classroom. So our role is is drastically changing, I would say.

Absolutely. I love that you mentioned that too, that it is ongoing and it just is not gonna stop. And if we don't stay up to date with it, in the end, our our clients, our students are gonna suffer. And I always kind of attach it to social media as well, where we forgot to have those conversations. And it really had a you know a negative effect to the point where just this year, Quebec banned cell phones from bell to bell in our youth sector schools, right? Because the acknowledgement that it was becoming it was interfering with the learning process. How do you take that kind of same mindset that AI has that we need to talk about the ethical use, the privacy, you know, what you share in there, copyright, you know, can I just take anything and throw it into chat and just it will do whatever it wants to it? Like understanding those kinds of concepts. Um how do we start having those conversations so that practice starts to shift? Um, how do you do that practically, Nicole, in in in your job of helping navigate that shift in mindset that almost has to happen, where we don't need to always be playing with the tool, but we definitely need to be talking about what it does. Um, how do you approach that in your in your professional development?

See, it's interesting because we can approach these topics at any age, at any level. Either you're in elementary, in high school, in uh formation généraliste, at any level you can talk about it. In the future, if everyone does that their part, we will no longer need to have these conversations when you reach uh college or university, right? Because it's it's a given. You you already discussed it, it's something you know, and you can you can take your tool from your box and use it in a different context, and you'll be able to think for yourself. And it gives more power to the human, right? The the people, more power to the people by doing so. Right now we're at a specific era where we're starting at different, we're all at different levels, academic levels, and we're all starting together. So it's really important to just rethink how we teach, how we re-evaluate, to go from uh instead of focusing on what to focus on how, because uh how do you get we can no longer just evaluating a result is not good anymore. You have to evaluate the whole process, for example, um through different examples, uh through assessments of uh learning journals, uh successive drafts, um, the way students critique, adapt, and challenge AI suggestions. I think that's very important. But most importantly, before doing that, uh at the same time, actually, not before, because we cannot speak in steps anymore. At the same time, we need to provide environments for the professionals to have these conversations and have this trust with uh in this contact with others so we can try things and make mistakes. And it's different when you make a mistake at a small level than at a bigger level. I had an interesting experience recently. A teacher shared of his experience of how he used AI in the classroom with the students, and one of the uses that I've noticed the most is the chatbot creations, either to ask questions about the content of what you're learning, or to uh simulate experiences with customers, for example, in sales or things like that. And uh, although the idea is very good, um, we see that the lack of structure that we currently have doesn't allow the professional to think about everything that he has to think about. For example, using a chatbot tool, prior to that, you need to teach students how to use it properly. What do you put in it? What do you not use? Uh, how not to give human uh characteristics to the tool, uh, how to prompt, just the basics, how to prompt. So that creates a kind of an inequality because some students are very good at prompting, others are not prompting to the full potential. And not only that, is that you have nothing's free in this world. So some students have full access to, let's say, Chat GPT, so they can use do some things, others they can have longer conversations actually. And those who use the free versions are not protected, protected in the same way, and they cannot have these longer conversations. So I think it's a mix of giving the opportunity to professionals to rethink their role and how they can accompany their students. Uh, but it's the communication as well at different levels and involved everyone. Um, IT, management, uh, uh support colleagues, everyone needs to talk. And one ingredient that is missing in all these conversations, we always say, we always hear the sentence we do this for our students, yet they are not part of the conversation when it comes to rules, when it comes to structure. So, how can we really respond to their needs if we don't even know where they're at?

Totally. I love that. I love that. And like the sense too, like, I love what you're saying. Um, and at the same time, not wanting to overwhelm teachers as well with this change, right? Like, we know teachers love structure, they love providing support and the right answers, and all of this dynamic is starting to shift underneath them, and it can create this unstuck instability where you know you're kind of confused as to what your role is. How do you approach it so that you get that human side? Because I what you said too about AI is not a human, you know, we have to not associate human characteristics to it, we've got to talk with the people that are gonna be using it. Um how do you how do you not overwhelm but still kind of push things forward a little bit? Because I I find that when we integrate technology, you'll always have your group of you know, 10-15% of teachers love it, they'll do it, they want in. And then you have the other group that is very kind of hesitant, and I've noticed a lot of that with AI, that hesitant and kind of seeing it in this negative light. Um, therefore, very hard to move it forward slowly without this, I don't need it, I don't want you know, this feeling of overwhelmingness. How do you approach that, Nicole, in in in in your practice?

Uh, before answering these questions, because something just popped up with what you said, that it it is true that a lot of people are skeptical or they refuse to use AI and they say, I refuse to use it. And some students have heard experiences in the classroom where teachers wanted to do an activity with AI and a few students refuse. We don't want to use it. So to me, it's always uh interesting because I don't know if everyone is aware that they're using AI. It's so integrated in everything that people believe they have the sense of control by saying, no, I don't want to use it. But are they really aware of the level of control that they have or not? Uh for example, all students have cell phones, they're using AI. Everyone watches Netflix, they're using AI. Uh Google Maps, you're using it. You're using your car now, you're using AI. So it's that level of conscience, right? To realize that do I wait a minute, do I really have a saying in all of this? And once you start digging, you quickly realize that you don't have much of a say. So you have to have all the elements on the table to be able to choose what you want to do or not, but with all the information on the table. So now to answer your questions, your question is it can feel overwhelming, right? The technology, how uh fast it advances. And and it can be a sort of sort of a sort of Pressure that people feel towards AI. And the questions I like to ask is pressure from who? Is it pressure from the big companies? Is it pressure from your students? Is it pressure from your friends? It can be pressure. It depends from who. If we speak about the companies, the ones that are developing these systems, they are moving at a rapid pace. They operate in a very competitive environment that is more driven by speed, by market position, and more of a power dynamics. In education and public service, we move at a different pace. One that is intentionally slower. Because our goal is to think deeply and to frame AI integration through ethical, responsible, and human-centered perspectives. And that's a bigger job. It's not just technical. To achieve this, we really need, like I said earlier, to uh create these spaces, spaces for teachers and pedagogical advisors where they can discuss, they can experiment, uh, try new things. Yeah, in protected spaces, there are there are safe, uh, where is it safe to explore? Adopting this new technology is not only about mastering the technical aspects of it. It's not about learning how to use Copilot. It's not learning how to use, it's not only learning how to use ChatGPT or COD or whatever. It requires connecting the technology to the pedagogical needs, uh, complying with regulations, protecting the interests of students and staff, and safeguarding institutional uh infrastructure as well. So it takes more than just a technical knowledge. It really requires like a non non-judgmental environments that build trust and allow honest conversations. It also demands trust across the organization levels. So uh open, honest dialogues with between IT teams, administrators, teachers, support staff. Um it's the only way. There's no other way because everyone is doing their job very well. We all have our role to play, but we need all all of the point uh point of view, different perspectives. Different perspectives, thank you, to have the right conversation. And finally, it takes time, or I should maybe say they need to free up time so teachers can take small manageable uh steps and stay uh connected with the right people along the way.

Interesting. I love that. I love how you're framing this, Nico. And have you seen like, can you give us an example where you've seen these small steps happen? Maybe not an individual, but like, you know, a school or you know, a classroom or like what are what does that feel and look like taking those small steps? Like, what would be an example of that?

An example would be uh starting with something simple that you already have. We don't need to go to all these tools right away because this is what people usually do. They want to explore more and more tools. Start with co-pilot. We all have it, it's integrated. Um sometimes people say it's useless, it's no good. Uh, but my question, my thinking is always have you really, really learned how to use co-pilot? Do you know how to use it? And your prompt. Exactly. Show me your prompts. So you're your uh what's the strategy do you use to use it, right? Questions like, yeah, so just use uh start with co-pilot. It's it's in a safe environment. Um, if you make a mistake, it's a lot less it's less bad if you make a little mistake on this copilot that is provided by your school board, then if you go on the public version with your personal account on a free version, it's two different risks that you're taking. And uh going uh to the right people to ask for, because a lot of people are starting on their own in their office or alone in front of their computer. It's too bad that we don't have the the space where someone can just go, you know what, I'll go there and ask the question either in a group, in a group chat, or I'm gonna go get what I need to try this because I'm scared. I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing. So hopefully in the future it that changes too.

Yeah, yeah. I like that though a lot that be be aware too, like when you're using chat, like what device you're on, because you know, if you're on a school device, I mean that's a property of your board or your center or whatever. Um and again, that's just AI literacy, right? Like know your tool, where you're at, what context you're in. Um, an interesting thing that I was thinking about is that I think eventually doing a query in a chatbot is gonna be a part of our curriculum. Um, how do I do it effectively? You know, it's like how to write a good story, how to write a good cover letter, how to write an email, like how to prompt a chatbot. I mean, it only will make sense to to equip our kids with that kind of competency for down the road. So I guess my last question to you, Nicole, is where do you see all this going? I know it's a huge question, but through your experiences and the things that you've been seeing on the ground, what direction do you think AI is going to end up taking in education as as a predictable guess, I guess. I guess it's hard to predict. But like, I guess, what do you hope to see how AI becomes more integrated with the educational system?

What I see and what I hope might be two different hands. Right.

I hear you.

But uh I think meaningful professional development around AI is for educators all around Quebec is essential. And it really needs to start with uh, like I said, protected spaces where staff are allowed to make mistakes. And it also requires a level of uh coherence, coherence, that's the same word in English, right? Across different regions and educational settings around the province. Uh, we need to avoid growing inequality inequalities between those learning environments because right now the decisions are being made are being made locally. There's no discussion globally. So if a student go to a school in a certain region versus another one, uh they probably won't have the same access. And and let's put the the students on the side for a moment, only for professionals. They don't have access to the same things around the province. And to me, that's very alarming because if no one is communicating, how are we making sure that everything's done equally for everyone? That we're not leaving people on the side. So plan instructive support is really, really essential. And perhaps even more importantly, it's ongoing professional development. Because when it comes to AI, it's not a matter of, okay, we'll train you and you know what it is, you're good to go. It doesn't work like that because the technology is always evolving. So you need to stay up to date, adjust your practice. New tool might come in in a few years or in a few months that is going to again put everything, change everything. And because it is evolving so rapidly, we need to keep it uh to keep to keep not keep up with the technology. I don't like to say that because we're at two different speeds, but let's say if we if we speak historically speaking, if we compare this with the moment the internet arrived, uh it really research and history shows that people adopt and navigate new technologies uh largely through interaction with others. There is a strong social dimension to technological appropriation, which makes it essential to create opportunities for educators to connect, to exchange, and learn from one another in order to innovate uh in their practice in a meaningful way. Because a teacher that teaches in Montreal, for example, this in the same um same um, let's say uh me, I work a lot with vocational with vocational training. So let's say I'm I'm teaching uh new students how to be secretaries. Well, maybe another teacher in another region is going through the same uh not struggles, but obstacles as you because their students are using Chat GPT because of all of this. So having access to a space where we can communicate with each other and work together is gonna have a bigger and smarter impact on how this is gonna evolve. And uh, like I was mentioning earlier, last but not least, to consult the students. What are their needs? Where are they at? Maybe they're doing wonderful things. And and we we are so focused sometimes on the cheating aspect of it. I I want to see if my students are using ChatGPT, if they're cheating. It's not a it's not a useful way of looking at it because not only it affects, it limits you to what you're capable of doing with your students, but it breaks a trust as well, because now you're just hunting, you're trying to find the error. And that's not what we want. We want students to be able to have these conversations with their teachers, open conversations, and for them to realize that maybe what they're doing is not the best thing in their interest, in their future. So yeah, we need to get out there and ask them uh what are their needs and how they see it. Because I I hear a lot of conversation going on about um laws and rules and this, but I've never seen a table where they've actually consulted students. It's always among IT, you know, management. So hopefully that's gonna change because it's it's truly a world. It's it's it's a global issue. It's not just Quebec, it's not just the country, it's everywhere, it's happening everywhere. So, how are we gonna communicate? And we can learn from each other. And sometimes the best approaches come from when we think outside of the box.

I love that. I love that. Well, Nicole, I love your mindset of how you've painted this picture of it's about relationships and talking and getting all the voices involved in decision making so that we're making the right decisions for people, regardless of what machines do down the road. I think if we maintain that humanity in the tools that we're gonna have access to and use, um, I think we'll be all the better for it.

Exactly. That's the only thing we can hope for the future. And and I truly believe that we have, we might not have the answers right now, but uh there needs to be action. We need to be movement, constant movement, and adjust. Maybe it and and sometimes I I was having a conversation with a group of professionals the other day, and um I made the comment that we don't need to go big right away. We can start with one project in one classroom with a group of students, see how it goes, and adjust from there and then go wider and wider and wider. We don't have to have all the answers right away, but there's need to there needs to be action. That's without doubt.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let's leave it on that. And Cole, um, I thank you for making us more aware and a little bit smarter here today with your reflections on AI and education. I wish you all the best in this journey that we're all on. Um, I think that your perspective has really helped clarify some things about machine versus human um and what is important, uh, what is really important. Um, and that's us. So thank you.

Thank you. Thank you again for having me, Chris. It was truly a pleasure.

Yeah, it was a great chat. Thanks so much.